Dark Edges - 16th June
ISD Fenrem > Greetings everyone. The seminar for "Dark Edges" will begin in 5 minutes. Be sure to join 'Seminar Q&A' as well as this channel.
ISD Fenrem > The seminar will begin in 2 minutes.
ISD Fenrem > Welcome, everyone, to tonight's seminar. I'm ISD Fenrem, and I will be your host tonight. Our discussion tonight is on the topic we lovingly call, "Dark Edges". Tonight we'll be discussing pirates, mercenaries, spies and infiltrators.
ISD Fenrem > If you haven't already done so, please join the channel "Seminar Q&A" where you can post any questions you may have..
ISD Fenrem > If New Eden only had two active people, someone would want someone dead. This is the nature of human beings, and this nature is perfectly captured in EVE Online, a universe in which every decision has it's consequences, and everyone is an enemy.
ISD Fenrem > Some enemies have values and principals. Some work in the light, others in the dark. Some make it known who and what they are, while others operate in secret. Tonight we'll take a more in-depth look at who these people are, how they operate...
ISD Fenrem > ...how to spot them, and how to deal with them.
ISD Fenrem > In any society, there will be people who want to watch the world burn, for no other reason that their own pleasure. Others will want the world to burn for money, or fame, or for a multitude of reasons.
ISD Fenrem > These sometimes senseless but often times pointed and skilled individuals are known as pirates.
ISD Fenrem > These experts on the guerilla battlefield look for opportunities to strike with the balance tipped in their favor, often researching and stalking for hours to figure out how a player thinks, and pouncing on them at the right opportunity.
ISD Fenrem > These individuals often run around in low security space and null security space, often solo or in small gangs.
ISD Fenrem > Their objective is two fold, A) Kill you for bragging rights, or B) Kill you for your potential ISK value.
ISD Fenrem > This ISK value comes in the form of loot, which may be left over modules or anything left in your cargohold, or your bounty.
ISD Fenrem > Unfortunately a determined pirate will stop at nothing to find and destroy you. To deter them, you can fly in groups of two or more, or avoid being in places where they can freely destroy you. This means avoiding lowsec, or flying with a scout.
ISD Fenrem > A scout essentially flys ahead of you in a very quick ship to make sure areas are clear before you jump into the system.
ISD Fenrem > Flying in small groups often times deters the solo pirate, also sometimes detering small gangs of pirates if you have enough people.
ISD Fenrem > Another deterent is your overall value. Flying in cheaply fit ships will sometimes be enough for a pirate to justify not killing you, simply as you're not worth the kill.
ISD Fenrem > More times than not, though, this will not make a difference.
ISD Fenrem > The thing to keep in mind is that Pirates are going to be the most volatile and unpredictable group of individuals that we will be discussing tonight. Take great care when traveling through spaces they're known to live in.
ISD Fenrem > I'd like to open the floor for questions if anyone has any on the topic just discussed.
ISD Athechu > Q: 0wl > well this is wrong...Pirates and Pvp'rs...there is a difference. How is the Eve uni gate camp any different to the -10 corp gate camp. its not piracy.
ISD Fenrem > 0wl, you're right, PvP'ers and Pirates are very different. PvP'ers are strictly looking for a fight, for no reason other than to fight. Pirates, on the other hand, look at value.
ISD Fenrem > An EVE Uni fleet isn't necessarily looking to turn a buck on their kills as an objective. They simply camp just to do it.
ISD Fenrem > Thank you for the question,0wl :)
ISD Athechu > Q: Chris Sphinx > How do you get through a system that is being gate camped?
ISD Fenrem > Chris Sphinx, one method of getting through a camp is by fitting one or more Warp Core Stabilizers to your ship, keeping them from pinning you. Another is by flying with a cloak, though the disadvantage is that your mobility will suffer.
ISD Fenrem > Unless you're in a covert ops ship.
ISD Fenrem > The best thing you can do in these cases is fly with a scout to check areas ahead of you.
ISD Fenrem > Thank you, Chris Sphinx :)
ISD Athechu > Q: Endlar Rollard > so a PvPer will let you be if you dont want a fight?
ISD Fenrem > Endlar Rollard, unfortunately this isn't the case, though I can see how you might come to that conclusion. where a Pirate is looking at the value of killing you, a PvP'er in general will kill you because that's what his occupation is.
ISD Fenrem > He doesn't care if you're fit well, rich and famous, have a hot portrait, or talk nice. He wants to kill you because he wants to kill you, and nothing you do will stop him from trying.
ISD Fenrem > The same rules apply in traveling, though. As long as you follow the precautions stated above, the principals all remain the same.
ISD Fenrem > Good question, Endlar Rollard
ISD Athechu > Q: Tallon Maas > Can I ask, Is there a list of the most notorious Pirates in New Eden somewheres please?
ISD Fenrem > Tallon Maas, Crime and Punishment on the forums is a good source of some seethingly awesome pirate stories, and also a good place where you'll find good and bad pirates (there is a difference). Another good indicator you can use would be...
ISD Fenrem > ...the Bounty boards when you dock in a station. They list the highest bounties in New Eden.
ISD Fenrem > Google will also be your friend in this case.
ISD Fenrem > Thank you Tallon :) Anything else on the list, Athechu?
ISD Athechu > Q: Belinda HwaFang > Repeating my question in case you missed it: how do we deal with the pirates who operate in 0.6-0.9 systems?
ISD Fenrem > Belinda HwaFang, Pirates in these systems will operate in one of two ways. They will either declare war on you, or they will try to suicide gank you.
ISD Fenrem > One deterent with the new changes in Inferno is to join an alliance of any kind. Doing so will increase the number of players on your side, making it more expensive for them to maintain the wardec and also posing more of a threat to them.
ISD Fenrem > Remember, for them it's about value.
ISD Fenrem > As far as suicide ganking is concerned, one of the problems of determining if someone is trying to gank you is that you don't really know until they're doing it.
ISD Fenrem > One good indicator is if you notice an unusually large spike in the number of people in your system by looking at the Local channel.
ISD Fenrem > If you do, something is amiss somewhere.
ISD Fenrem > Other than that, try to remember the corps/alliances that try to gank you, and set standings accordingly so the next time they're in your system, you have a visual reference.
ISD Fenrem > Thank you for the question, Belinda HwaFang :)
ISD Fenrem > Anything else for me, ISD Athechu
ISD Athechu > Not at the moment.
ISD Fenrem > Thank you, Athechu. Let's move on to our next topic of discussion -- Mercenaries.
ISD Fenrem > Where PvP'ers are simply looking to fight 'just because', and pirates are looking for fights for the monetary value of the kill, Mercenaries operate off of payment.
ISD Fenrem > Mercenaries are hired guns who are paid to carry out a mission of some kind. Some of those missions may include Area Denial, Griefing, POS warfare, or Infiltration.
ISD Fenrem > Mercenaries can be a good or a bad thing to have around, depending on if you're on the giving end or the receiving end of the stick. Fortunately, they're also somewhat simple to combat.
ISD Fenrem > The first thing to keep in mind about mercenaries is that they operate largely on reputation.
ISD Fenrem > Mercenary corporations and alliances have to be known to be hired, and if they're known as being lying sacks of biomass, they generally don't get hired very often, hurting their income stream.
ISD Fenrem > Mercenaries are also known for being dealers. You can use this to your advantage with potential payoffs to keep them from continuing their activities. Of course, this is on a case by case generalization and your mileage may vary.
ISD Fenrem > Let's talk about some of the activities that a merc corp will partake in. Area denial is the act of keeping a pilot, corp, or alliance locked out of an area by means of force.
ISD Fenrem > Generally speaking, a merc corp would need to have prior intel, either by their client, or by their own observations when flying blind.
ISD Fenrem > One method of combatting this is by providing them with sketchy intel. If you are in a corporation, have the corporation set their Headquarters in a system faaaar far away from where you actually operate.
ISD Fenrem > If flying blind, one of the things they'll check is your corp info, and if they try to camp your Headquarters, guess what? You won't be there.
ISD Fenrem > Unfortunately, this isn't the only means of detection, and if a mercenary corp wants to, they can still gather much needed intel on you. One means of doing so is through public forums and killmails
ISD Fenrem > For instance, by searching through the public EVE Online forums, you may have posted where your operations are taking place, or asked pointed questions that can be used to figure out what general area you're in.
ISD Fenrem > Killmails will show them what systems you fly in and what kind of ships you actually fly.
ISD Fenrem > Sites such as http://www.battleclinic.com provide a wide array of killmails that are publicly viewable.
ISD Fenrem > Lastly, there's sites such as http://evewho.com that use that killmail information to reference every member in your corp or alliance.
ISD Fenrem > Try it yourself. Go to http://evewho.com and type your corporation's name in at the top.
ISD Fenrem > What are some ways to avoid these types of systems? Unfortunately that'd be very difficult. You'd have to essentially not play the game. Every action you do has a trail, from market transactions to killmails.
ISD Fenrem > If you're here trying to avoid a mercenary corp, one method of doing so if you are wardec'd is to allow for allies.
ISD Fenrem > This will allow anyone to come and help you in your war, increasing your numbers and fighting off the mercenaries.
ISD Fenrem > Another means of doing so is trying to talk to them, offering them something more if they leave you alone.
ISD Fenrem > Though again, your mileage may vary.
ISD Fenrem > If you're wanting to become a mercenary, know that your reputation in EVE is everything as a mercenary, and follow-through and attitude is important, in-game and in the forums.
ISD Fenrem > Also understand how the tools above work, and know that above all things, your best friend in life is something called Google.
ISD Fenrem > I'd like to take a moment again to open up the floor to any questions you may have.
ISD Fenrem > ISD Athechu, anything out there?
ISD Athechu > Q: Roy Sasen > How does a person break into being a merc?
ISD Fenrem > Roy Sasen, one way to get into the crowd is to do just that, join a mercenary corporation. They can frequently be seen looking for people on the Recruitment forums and in the Recruitment channel, accessible by the speech bubble at the top right.
ISD Fenrem > It may be difficult to get into a good one at first, but keep at it and eventually you'll get some reknown.
ISD Fenrem > Another way is to advertise on the forums, but keep in mind that your follow-through is everything, so be prepared if you get asked to do a tough job. Don't go from being a mercenary to a pirate. It can happen pretty easily :)
ISD Fenrem > Good question, Roy Sasen
ISD Athechu > Q: Endlar Rollard > how can you tell a good merc group from a bad then?
ISD Fenrem > Easily enough through Googling them, looking at any forum posts they may have, looking at any killboards they may have, etc. Get a feel for how they work. Do they do a job and that's it? Do they gloat and tear it up on the forums?
ISD Fenrem > Do they take ISK and then get bought out right away, leaving their client in the dark?
ISD Fenrem > These are things a little Googling and forum searching can show you, and their skills can be shown through their killboards.
ISD Fenrem > Excellent question, Roy Sasen, thank you.
ISD Athechu > This is a question from the previous section but : Pathos Sartre > can you still use the poseidon jump tactic to avoid getting scanned down by a pirate?
ISD Fenrem > While in God of War 3 I may understand what you're meaning, I can only assume you mean deep save spots in EVE?
ISD Fenrem > *safe
ISD Fenrem > I see in Q&A that that's what you mean. Unfortunately, deep safes were nerfed a while ago and are nolonger an option.
ISD Fenrem > You need to be within 20 AU's of a celestial.
ISD Fenrem > And now that you mention it, I do recall Project Poseidon.
ISD Fenrem > Thank you for the question,
ISD Fenrem > What else do we have ISD Athechu?
ISD Fenrem > Just as a clerification, http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=748 explains that it's indeed not 20AUs but 10AUs
ISD Fenrem > Sorry about all the confusion there.
ISD Athechu > That's all the questions so far :)
ISD AeolusWind > Fenrem, do you mind if I add something to the 'avoid getting scanned by a pirate' question? :)
ISD Fenrem > As an aside as well, you can use instant undocks from commonly used stations to avoid being scanned and subsequently ganked.
ISD AeolusWind > Ah, there it is :)
ISD Fenrem > Everyone, please welcome ISD AeolusWind, Captain of the Support, Training, and Resources division of ISD :D
ISD AeolusWind > I do what I can. I was just going to throw my .02 but it seems Fenrem has things well in hand :P
ISD Fenrem > Thank you, AW :D
ISD Fenrem > So let's move onward to our last group of individuals for this seminar: Infiltrators.
ISD Fenrem > You will rarely see them coming. They may be in your corp right now, stealing all of your intel.
ISD Fenrem > They're the most difficult individual to recognize until it's too late, but with some precautions, they're the easiest to defend against.
ISD Fenrem > As you've noticed, the pirates kill for value, the mercs are hired for jobs, but where does a lot of juicy intel come from? How does anyone in a war know what the other group is thinking or doing?
ISD Fenrem > How did they know that ISD Athechu just bought a new hamster last night named Fluffy and fed her carrots?
ISD Fenrem > There's probably a spy in their midst.
ISD Fenrem > An individual who takes up infiltration doesn't operate on the level. They operate using several, several characters.
ISD Fenrem > Some infiltrators operate using the three character slots in their account. Some infiltrators I know use up to 5 acccounts, rotating all 15 characters and training them individually with clean corp histories, using ISK from jobs they run to PLEX.
ISD Fenrem > Their key to success is never being found out, and in doing so, they take great measures to ensure that they never do. With the addition of character-specific API's, it's become even easier to cover tracks.
ISD Fenrem > So what is their goal? What are they after?
ISD Fenrem > Like the other two, they're in it for the ISK. The difference is that they may or may not have been hired for the job
ISD Fenrem > Let's look at those who do get hired on for a job infiltrating a corporation or an alliance.
ISD Fenrem > When an infiltrator is hired, they are hired for a few different things. The first thing they may be after is strictly intel. This intel can be how many members a corp has, who they're friends with, what they fly, where they get their income, etc.
ISD Fenrem > They can use this intel to track pilots using locator agents, or use it to disrupt ISK-making activities during a war.
ISD Fenrem > Other forms of income are corp assets -- How many of what do they have? What is their total force?
ISD Fenrem > After completion, an infiltrator will either stay within the corp to continue to provide intel, leave the corp immediately, or stay on to do their own bidding.
ISD Fenrem > Infiltrators will sometimes go forward for their own measures. Things they then are looking for are assets and ISK.
ISD Fenrem > Essentially, this is wher eyou start to hear about Corp Thiefs. The infiltrators biggest interest is hijacking the largest value out of a corp.
ISD Fenrem > What are some ways to protect against this behavior? In order for an infiltrator to do such things, they need the ability to do them. That's where roles come in.
ISD Fenrem > Some roles are necessary. It'd take too long to go into detail on every single role, but one elephant in the room I do want to point out is the absolutely unnecessary role of the universe, and that's Director
ISD Fenrem > Directors are essentially CEO's. They can do almost everything a CEO can, opening up a can of worms you don't want anyone but you to have.
ISD Fenrem > Some make the comment, "Nobody gets director unless I can punch you in the face". The meme is in use for a good reason. Only give Director to those you absolutely trust.
ISD Fenrem > Secondly, be absolutely sure to secure all of your Corporate Shares.
ISD Fenrem > An infiltrator, after receiving the appropriate roles, can take all of your shares and use them to hijack your corporation, stealing all of it's assets.
ISD Fenrem > Lastly, be sure to run those API checks and ask the pointed questions that nobody would ever want to be asked. Try to find holes. Wait on applications for a day.
ISD Fenrem > If an infiltrator doesn't have any roles or abilities, he/she can't really do anything in your corp.
ISD Fenrem > Always always always be absolutely sure.
ISD Fenrem > Before I open the floor up to questions, I want to bring to your attention an interesting blog post from an infiltrator that runs around New Eden.
ISD Fenrem > http://dareknight.blogspot.com/2012/05/welcome-back-mr-knight.html is an excellent example of how an infiltrator works
ISD Fenrem > I'd like to now open the floor for any questions.
ISD Athechu > Q: No Wait > What kind of intel is worth stealing?
ISD Fenrem > Anything, really. Things like member lists, what those members regularly fly, what those members regularly do, where the corp as a whole flies, what kind of assets they have, etc.
ISD Fenrem > Ship types, weapons, number of ships in reserve, where, when, how, what, when, etc.
ISD Fenrem > Anything and everything is always useful.
ISD Fenrem > Good question No Wait
ISD Athechu > Q: Roy Sasen > It seems to be a lot of effort and planning - how common is this?
ISD Fenrem > Roy Sasen, good question. I linked the blog post above to give you an indicator on the planning and subsequently lack of planning some things undergo for infiltrators. To give an example, the blogger above stole 35 billion isk in only a matter of months
ISD Fenrem > If I remember correctly this person was initially hired on to do a job, but then went on his own for his own earnings.
ISD Fenrem > Good question, Roy Sasen. Thank you.
ISD Athechu > Q: No Wait - What kind of payment do "for-hire" espionage agents expect for this level of subterfuge
ISD Fenrem > No Wait It differs for many. Some do it based on the theft valuethey see in the job after it's completion. Some do it for set amounts. Without actually being one, it's hard to say. I can tell you, though, that the size and length...
ISD Fenrem > ...of the job has a lot to do with pricing, with small jobs sometimes being as low as 300m ISK, while larger alliance infiltrations supposedly can run upwards of several billion ISK.
ISD Fenrem > Nice question.
ISD Fenrem > ISD Athechu, anything else?
ISD Athechu > Q: Belinda HwaFang > There seem to be TONS of "dark side" corps, but very few "light side" corps around, is this because of the game mechanics, or the nature of the players?
ISD Fenrem > Belinda HwaFang, that's a good and difficult question to ask. Without delving into human nature, psychology, etc, let's suffice it to say that in the vast scheme of things, being a bad guy tends to be more profitable than being good.
ISD Fenrem > That's not to say that there's nothing in it for the good guys, it's just generally harder to keep going in the long term.
ISD Fenrem > Good question, Belinda HwaFang
ISD Athechu > Q: Rok Hel > ISD Fenrem I am concerned that the new system will encourage WD griefers to pick on the 1-2-3 man Corps. Your thoughts?
ISD Fenrem > Rok Hel an interesting trend that I've observed personally is that these 1-2-3 man corps that get wardec'd often times open up to allies. It's surprising how many people these solo corps actually know, and how many people come to their aid.
ISD Fenrem > That being said, it's almost just as easy (and cheap) for these solo corps to just dump into an NPC corp for a while, immune to wardecs. Others get their allies and go pummel some war targets.
ISD Fenrem > Another thing people tend to do is join an alliance. Suddenly that cheap wardec is waaaay more expensive.
ISD Fenrem > Once done, if a wardec goes mutual, and the dec'er is at a disadvantage, boy are they in for some serious pain.
ISD Fenrem > Excellent question, Rok Hel
ISD Fenrem > ISD Athechu Anything else?
ISD Athechu > Looks like that is itISD Fenrem
ISD Fenrem > In conclusion, if you follow these simple and easy to remember points, you'll be okay:
ISD Fenrem > Never fly in lowsec without a scout or in number, unless you know you can take on anything.
ISD Fenrem > Never give out roles that are unnecessary.
ISD Fenrem > Always do your research and follow common sense.
ISD Fenrem > Google is your friend.
ISD Fenrem > These things will almost always keep you out of hot water.
ISD Fenrem > Use your tools as best as you can, and you'll be good to go
ISD Fenrem > *** I want to thankISD Athechu for helping me tonight with this seminar and ISD AeolusWind for his guest appearance. I want to thank all of you guys for attending tonight and for continuing the ongoing story that is EVE Online.
ISD Fenrem > Without you guys, we'd be playing World of Warcraft.
ISD Fenrem > If you have any questions about seminars in general or any feedback, please feel free to post them in the New Citizens forums on the EVE website.
ISD Fenrem > Also don't be afraid to ask questions in the help channels.
ISD Fenrem > Until next time, this is Fenrem, and I'll be tealing your help channels o7